F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Talk about competitive road cycling in all its forms
User avatar
Mad_Malx
Posts: 2056
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Mad_Malx » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:49 am

The amino acid sequence of most synthetic EPO is identical to human, it is the glycosylation that differs.

Most recent scientific review I have seen is here (but not sure if joe public can view it):
Jelkmann and Lundby (2011) Blood doping and its detection Blood 118, 2395
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.o ... /2395.full

Extract:
Endogenous Epo and the epoetins have an invariant sequence of 165 amino acids, but they differ in glycosylation. Compared with the epoetins, endogenous Epo isoforms are more acidic30–32 and smaller in size.33 Epo can be separated by isoelectric focusing (IEF) or electrophoresis of urine samples. After IEF, a double-blotting procedure is performed. The mutein darbepoetin-alfa migrates more in the acidic range than Epo on IEF.30,31 The WADA has established criteria to achieve harmonization in the performance of the test for epoetin and darbepoetin in urine.34 Actually, when urine samples from rhEpo-treated subjects were submitted to 2 WADA-accredited laboratories, the results were not fully consistent,35 which, as claimed by the laboratories, was apparently the result of methodologic differences. A recent detection problem has arisen with the addition of proteases by athletes to their urinary samples, which destroys the erythropoietic proteins.36,37 The adulteration of urine with proteases is a prohibited method,1 and techniques have been developed for the detection of their misuse.38

bipedal
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 16:56 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby bipedal » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:12 am

frenchfighter wrote:Worth noting that point. It's a pretty sad state of affairs. Most miniscule amounts will be due to contamination, be totally accidental and server zero purpose from a performance perspective yet the sport still takes a year off these riders livelihoods. I really don't like this.


If you keep saying it, maybe one day it might become true... until then they're dopers telling just-so stories

powerbookboy
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 07:57 am

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby powerbookboy » Fri Feb 01, 2013 14:25 pm

[quote="Mad_Malx"]The amino acid sequence of most synthetic EPO is identical to human, it is the glycosylation that differs.

Most recent scientific review I have seen is here (but not sure if joe public can view it):
Jelkmann and Lundby (2011) Blood doping and its detection Blood 118, 2395
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.o ... /2395.full

Thank you. I hadn't realised the actual amino acid sequence was identical. Wasn't even aware people were stuffing sugars onto the proteins in a controlled manner. Things have moved on.

Update: Having just read it, it looks like the detectability is based on the host cells they use to manufacturer the EPO. Basically your hamster cell decorates the protein "backbone" in a different way to a human cell. They also mentioned "The only therapeutic rhEpo engineered in human cells (epoetin δ) is off market since the beginning of 2009"

Which rather implies it's perfectly possible to produce completely "human" looking EPO that would pass any tests, unless the manufacturer choose to "paint" a target on it in some way.

Shutting up now...

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 15188
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Pross » Sat Feb 09, 2013 14:59 pm

I think there are some in Road General who need educating http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=12904432

User avatar
LeicesterLad
Posts: 3767
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 21:51 pm
Contact:

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby LeicesterLad » Sat Feb 09, 2013 15:37 pm

Wow. John1967. :shock:

Are you having a laugh.Football gave Rio Ferdinand a 9 month ban for missing a test yet cycling fails to set an example.
This decision is pathetic.

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 15188
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Pross » Sat Feb 09, 2013 17:50 pm

LeicesterLad wrote:Wow. John1967. :shock:

Are you having a laugh.Football gave Rio Ferdinand a 9 month ban for missing a test yet cycling fails to set an example.
This decision is pathetic.


It was the next comment he made about football having its doping house in order that really gave me a WTF moment. Also they all seem to have missed the point that the ban isn't a cycling issue as it is the national ADA that set it the same as it would be if a footballer failed a test.

User avatar
rob churchill
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 20:05 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby rob churchill » Sat Feb 09, 2013 18:31 pm

Just to add my ha'pennorth:

Epo has a very short half-life, a matter of hours. The 'glow time' is so short that the chances of directly detecting the Epo itself are very slim. So detection of blood-doping is more often a matter of looking for the physiological effects of artificially stimulated blood production or re-infusion.

Newly formed, immature red blood cells (reticulocytes) are visibly different from mature red blood cells (erythrocytes). When an athlete takes a dose of Epo, it stimulates over-production of new blood cells and the proportion of reticulocytes to erythrocytes or Hb increases. Once these cells mature the body has a surfeit of blood cells (which is what the athlete wants from the dope) but because of this surfeit the body shuts down production of new blood until the surplus cells eventually reach the end of their lives, get broken down in the usual way, and the haematocrit returns to normal. During this latter period, with no new blood being produced, the proportion of reticulocytes is abnormally low. The same thing happens if the surplus blood cells come from autologous transfusion (reinfusion of the athlete's stored blood).

Epo use can therefore be detected by a reticulocyte ratio that is either abnormally high or abnormally low.

This leads to the slightly bizarre situation that Epo can be used as a masking agent for Epo. If an athlete knows he is likely to be tested, and that he'll show a low reticulocyte count, a tiny microdose of Epo can be taken to produce a few new reticulocytes and bring the ratio back into a more normal range. Likewise Epo can be used to hide autologous transfusions.

This obviously requires someone with real medical expertise to be supervising the doping regime. It also shows why blood passports are needed and why they need careful interpretation rather than producing a simple positive/negative result (and why the USADA reasoned decision made some cryptic references to LA having blood values consistent with doping).
I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.

User avatar
Jez mon
Posts: 2557
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 15:07 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Jez mon » Sat Feb 09, 2013 19:16 pm

I thought EPO was detectable for about 24 hrs when injected intravenously and a week when injected straight into the muscle. The latter being the reason for the American sportive rider testing positive last summer, a week after he'd taken it.

But my favourite theory is that JB spiked Frank's food, just because.
You live and learn. At any rate, you live
Twitter

User avatar
rob churchill
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 20:05 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby rob churchill » Sat Feb 09, 2013 19:30 pm

Jez mon wrote:I thought EPO was detectable for about 24 hrs when injected intravenously and a week when injected straight into the muscle. The latter being the reason for the American sportive rider testing positive last summer, a week after he'd taken it.

But my favourite theory is that JB spiked Frank's food, just because.


Detection window is dose-dependent. Hence the popularity of 'microdosing' (taking frequent small doses instead of less frequent, larger ones - especially last thing at night, in the hope that the Epo will be undetectable by morning). I don't know the details, I doubt the labs are very forthcoming with that info.*


* ...unless Pat McQuaid asks them to give you the guided tour. :mrgreen:
I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.

User avatar
dennisn
Posts: 10104
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 20:46 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby dennisn » Sat Feb 09, 2013 19:46 pm

Jez mon wrote:But my favourite theory is that JB spiked Frank's food, just because.


And it's a good theory. However I would change the "just because" to read "for reasons unknown at this time".
I can't really decide if spiking someones food or water is the dumbest thing you can do or simply a really good way to get rid of someone. I'm sure that there is most likely some drama behind the scenes between riders, teammates, opposing teams, and managers that might set someone(not particularly JB) on the path of sabotage against someone else. Hatred, jealousy, envy, or just plain not getting along with each other are all possibilities. I seem to remember, a few TDF's ago,
that someone assaulted another rider with a wheel. That's a pretty serious case of p*ssed off and tells me that things do simmer a bit behind the scenes and occasionally boil over. So a little bit of sneaky doping wouldn't surprise me.

User avatar
Mad_Malx
Posts: 2056
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Mad_Malx » Sat Feb 09, 2013 21:23 pm

rob churchill wrote:Detection window is dose-dependent. Hence the popularity of 'microdosing' (taking frequent small doses instead of less frequent, larger ones - especially last thing at night, in the hope that the Epo will be undetectable by morning). I don't know the details, I doubt the labs are very forthcoming with that info.*


Try this
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.o ... /2395.full

Another difficulty relates to the fact that once [Hb] has been raised in athletes by the administration of recombinant ESAs, only microdoses or less frequent injections of the drugs are needed to maintain [Hb] at the high level. In this situation, the window of detection of rhEpo in urine is only 12-18 hours, compared with about 3 days on regular dosing (50 U/kg body weight 3 times a week).

Edit: longer window in blood

User avatar
rob churchill
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 20:05 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby rob churchill » Sat Feb 09, 2013 22:14 pm

Mad_Malx wrote:
rob churchill wrote:Detection window is dose-dependent. Hence the popularity of 'microdosing' (taking frequent small doses instead of less frequent, larger ones - especially last thing at night, in the hope that the Epo will be undetectable by morning). I don't know the details, I doubt the labs are very forthcoming with that info.*


Try this
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.o ... /2395.full

Another difficulty relates to the fact that once [Hb] has been raised in athletes by the administration of recombinant ESAs, only microdoses or less frequent injections of the drugs are needed to maintain [Hb] at the high level. In this situation, the window of detection of rhEpo in urine is only 12-18 hours, compared with about 3 days on regular dosing (50 U/kg body weight 3 times a week).

Edit: longer window in blood


Thanks for that, really good link. Working my way through it now, even if a fair chunk of it is over my head.

EDIT-

There's some scary sh1t in there:

In addition, in vivo Epo gene transfer could probably be detected if applied by athletes, as an IEF study revealed unusual Epo glycosylation forms on allogeneic Epo transfer into skeletal muscle of cynomolgus macaques via adeno-associated virus.72 In the initial studies of adeno-associated virus-mediated allogeneic Epo cDNA transfer to macaques, severe anemia developed in many animals after a few months, which was probably the result of an immune reaction.73,74 However, in using a rapamycin dimerizer-regulated gene expression system, Rivera et al75 achieved controlled, long-term production (up to 6 years) of Epo in rhesus monkeys, with no apparent immune response. Regarding the possibility of Epo gene doping in humans, strategies are under development to specifically amplify intron-less DNA sequences and PCR protocols allowing the detection of small amounts of transgenic DNA in blood.76–78 The tests take into consideration that transgenes are usually derived from the cDNA for the gene to be transferred and cDNA does not contain introns [...] In conclusion, Epo gene transfer is possible but medically little explored with respect to efficacy, safety, and immunogenicity. It seems less likely that any of the techniques has entered the sports scene.


Short form- we're pretty sure we don't have genetically modified dopers yet, but we're ready for 'em.
I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.

User avatar
Macaloon
Posts: 5503
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 09:38 am

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Macaloon » Sun Feb 10, 2013 09:40 am

rob churchill wrote:Short form - we're pretty sure we don't have genetically modified dopers yet, but we're ready for 'em.


Designer riders: Take the protential of a JTL; add Fignon's follicles, a dash of Boonen's panache, strap Stannard's engine to Rolland's pedal stroke (and his fearful grinning pain-face), top off with mature Vockler's race-craft and Cav's PR genius.

Quite watchable.
...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.

User avatar
OCDuPalais
Posts: 2225
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 23:10 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby OCDuPalais » Sun Feb 10, 2013 09:48 am

Macaloon wrote:
Designer riders: Take the protential of a JTL; add Fignon's follicles, a dash of Boonen's panache, strap Stannard's engine to Rolland's pedal stroke (and his fearful grinning pain-face), top off with mature Vockler's race-craft and Cav's PR genius.

Quite watchable.



+ Rasmussen's TT skills

User avatar
DeadCalm
Posts: 2027
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 09:15 am

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby DeadCalm » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:41 am

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily 16h
WADA has announced it won't appeal against the decision to ban Frank Schleck for 1 year. Schleck tested positive for doping in the 2012 Tour

User avatar
Mad_Malx
Posts: 2056
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Mad_Malx » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:02 am

^^FrAndy going to target the Vuelta then?

User avatar
TailWindHome
Posts: 10560
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 08:57 am

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby TailWindHome » Thu Jul 04, 2013 18:41 pm

the Inner Ring ‏@inrng 2h
Radioshack's statement on Frank Schleck is like a reading comprehension test: "Leopard has decided to not renew the collaboration"
"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? IS THIS NOT WHY YOU ARE HERE?"

User avatar
ddraver
Posts: 17350
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 15:57 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby ddraver » Thu Jul 04, 2013 19:40 pm

Twitter awash with rumors that Andy is going to OPQS?!?!
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver
- Blog-http://davekio.wordpress.com/

User avatar
ratherbeintobago
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:59 am
Contact:

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby ratherbeintobago » Thu Jul 04, 2013 20:17 pm

ddraver wrote:Twitter awash with rumors that Andy is going to OPQS?!?!


Not sure how much use he'll be in a lead-out train...

bipedal
Posts: 436
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 16:56 pm

Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby bipedal » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:13 pm

Coming a few days after Trek agree terms with Cancellara, this looks like a change in direction for the team, i.e. Fabian no longer intends to drag the Schlecks up the cols


Return to “Pro Race”