Carbon fibre who was the first....

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Dave_1
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Postby Dave_1 » Sat Nov 08, 2008 15:11 pm

Monty Dog wrote:I had an Alan Record Carbonio - they were making them up until a few years ago - it wasn't the stiffest frame in the world and the aluminium fork was horrible - harsh and flexy at the same time! Vitus did the Carbon 8 frame and it was also available branded Peugeot AFAIK. The first carbon Colnagos were is fact rebadged Alans, likewise for Guerciottis too. The Alan, Look, TVT and Vitus/Peugeot all appeared at about the same time - late 1980s. Craig Calfee in the US has been making carbon frames since 1988 too - and I think it was a rebadged Calfee that LeMond rode for Z-Peugeot in 1990. The Vitus used to suffer from horrible galvanic corrosion due to unanodised aluminium lugs - the joints would come unstuck and split the carbon tubes.


Alan carbon were not around pre Look..at least as pro team issue-maybe club level :?

MO Lemond was on a TVT in 1990 badged as a Lemond, identical butting to my Look Carbon and then my TVT 92-replaced the look-...Ron Kithcining did :) cause the Look carbon broke apart at bottom bracket.

Lemond was , in 1989, on a TVT rebadged as a Bottechia-but not his TT frame-that was a USA made frame I think, and his 1990 TDF low profile was a carbon like a TVT with slope down tube, PDM used it too in 1990. IMO there were NO carbon frames-team issue in pro peloton as team issue or in carbon appearance-black/grey woven fabric as tubing pre JF Bernard 1987 Mont Ventoux. Toshiba was first in 87 on Carbon andWeinman LA Suisse on TVT in 1988, Reynolds (Delgado) in 88...craig calfee?

PDM were on Concorde till 89 and Kelly with KAs ona non carbon vitus as were Cafe De columbia up to 88

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25520277@N03/sets/
Last edited by Dave_1 on Sat Nov 08, 2008 15:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chip \'oyler
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Postby Chip \'oyler » Sat Nov 08, 2008 15:18 pm

I've just realised the post was about the first Carbon frames in the peloton

However I'm sure you'll appreciate the beauty of an Alan Record Carbonio

http://velospace.org/node/5380

cougie
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Postby cougie » Sat Nov 08, 2008 20:10 pm

Didnt kelly ride an alan too ? Lemond def had a carbon fibre in the year that riis won.

Stukie
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Postby Stukie » Sun Nov 09, 2008 00:24 am

Robert Millar and the Peugeot team were riding carbon fibre bikes with alu lugs in the 1984 Tour. You can see the carbon bikes with Jubillee clipped water bottles on the frontpage here. http://www.robertmillar.net/

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Dave_1
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Postby Dave_1 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 05:39 am

Stukie wrote:Robert Millar and the Peugeot team were riding carbon fibre bikes with alu lugs in the 1984 Tour. You can see the carbon bikes with Jubillee clipped water bottles on the frontpage here. http://www.robertmillar.net/


IMO Millar was on alloy tubing, not Carbon in 84-86 at Peugeot...but if not, then why was everyone else 3 year later in getting onto carbon given the weight saving? I very much doubt carbob frames were at the 84 TDF...but prove me wrong

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Postby mercsport » Sun Nov 09, 2008 08:49 am

I hope I'm proved wrong ( as I'd really like to know the answer ) but I feel Dave_1 has a point . I 'd always thought Robert Millar , Sean Kelly and others had some of their best times upon a duralumin tubed , bonded lug , Vitus . Regardless of the name on the downtube .

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emadden
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Postby emadden » Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:03 pm

When I was young kid back in the summer of 1988 I remember being at a bike race in Cork and seeing a crashed VITUS carbon... It was covered in KAS decals, so it was probably an ex-Kelly bike that a Carrick fan had picked up...(hence Kelly would have owned in during the 87 season). The head tube had come away from the frame and the tubes were broken open in a horrific splintered fashion... The image which stuck in the mind was the blood splashed all over the frame....
As a young kid at the time I wondered why anybody would ride carbon !


Now... 20 years later I ride a Pinarello Prince :P :P :P :P
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LangerDan
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Postby LangerDan » Sun Nov 09, 2008 14:00 pm

I'm not sure that the early carbon frames offered much of a weight advantage. In the late 80's a Dublin bike shop had a Peugeot carbon frame for sale - it wasn't particularly light compared to the conventional Vitus.
AFAIK, you could get the Peugeot / Vitus frame in two options - 3 carbon tube (top, seat,down) with the balance in aluminium or you could splash out on a 7 tube frame, with the stays in carbon. All the carbon tubes were bonded to alloy lugs.

Kelly used to go through many Vitus frames in a season. I think that in the classics season, he's spend no more than a month on a frame and then sell them on. I think there was suspicion that the bonding would become more suspect after a thrashing in .Flanders or Roubaix
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Dave_1
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Postby Dave_1 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 14:03 pm

emadden wrote:When I was young kid back in the summer of 1988 I remember being at a bike race in Cork and seeing a crashed VITUS carbon... It was covered in KAS decals, so it was probably an ex-Kelly bike that a Carrick fan had picked up...(hence Kelly would have owned in during the 87 season). The head tube had come away from the frame and the tubes were broken open in a horrific splintered fashion... The image which stuck in the mind was the blood splashed all over the frame....
As a young kid at the time I wondered why anybody would ride carbon !


Now... 20 years later I ride a Pinarello Prince :P :P :P :P


Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg

I thought the latter...but I could well be wrong-but doesn't explain why lots were riding heavy steal frames in 1988,89 and 1990...must not have been as obsessed as I thought by bikes at 17. Cafe de Columbia and Kas were on the same frames in 87, 88- from Vitus. Kelly has a TT low prof from 86 that is also black main tubes which would date carbon to 86......this was the colour not the fabric??

Claimed to be Herrera's 84 TDF frame...of what material was this frame? Vitus 979? http://www.rebolledocycles.com/blog/wp- ... -front.jpg

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Monty Dog
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Postby Monty Dog » Sun Nov 09, 2008 14:13 pm

I was playing around with bonded carbon tube / alloy lug construction in 1989 / 1990, not for bike frames, but artificial limbs and it was new technology, so as Dave says, I think the first prototypes were only made in 87/88 with the availability of suitable carbon tubes. The big problem that everybody found out was galvanic corrosion between the bare aluminium and the carbon - water and salt caused a chemical reaction that weakened the joint - often catastrophically. The Vitus/Peugeot frames of the period were notorious for this problem - luckily the Alans because of their joint construction were less prone. Frame weights were still in the region of 1500g - heavy by todays standards, but many of the steel frames of that period were quite hefty - many were chrome plated and then painted - nice to look at, but no lightweight.
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emadden
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Postby emadden » Sun Nov 09, 2008 15:12 pm

Dave_1 wrote:
Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg



Hard to tell from that pic... Looks like a VITUS 979 to me :roll: :idea: :?: :?: :?:
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Dave_1
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Postby Dave_1 » Sun Nov 09, 2008 15:48 pm

emadden wrote:
Dave_1 wrote:
Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg



Hard to tell from that pic... Looks like a VITUS 979 to me :roll: :idea: :?: :?: :?:


Me too...they did them in a few different colours,red as well and Kelly was in yellow-gold colours at Kas?

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Postby Chip \'oyler » Sun Nov 09, 2008 16:36 pm

Monty Dog wrote:I was playing around with bonded carbon tube / alloy lug construction in 1989 / 1990, not for bike frames, but artificial limbs and it was new technology, so as Dave says, I think the first prototypes were only made in 87/88 with the availability of suitable carbon tubes. The big problem that everybody found out was galvanic corrosion between the bare aluminium and the carbon - water and salt caused a chemical reaction that weakened the joint - often catastrophically. The Vitus/Peugeot frames of the period were notorious for this problem - luckily the Alans because of their joint construction were less prone. Frame weights were still in the region of 1500g - heavy by todays standards, but many of the steel frames of that period were quite hefty - many were chrome plated and then painted - nice to look at, but no lightweight.


Not according to my previous post

Not content to rest on this success, though, Ludovic launched the first commercially available carbon fibre frames on the world in 1976. Made using broadly similar processes to the alu frames, the Record Carbonio used Toray Carbon woven tubes, bonded with alloy lugs and a special process to prevent galvanic corrosion at the joint, which many producers even today omit, compromising the lifespan of their product.

I've heard Robert Millar sometimes visits this site - perhaps he could shed some light?

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LangerDan
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Postby LangerDan » Sun Nov 09, 2008 17:29 pm

Dave_1 wrote:Was Lucho Herrera on a carbon main frame or were Vitus just avoiding the whole frame being silver? http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders ... educed.jpg

I thought the latter...but I could well be wrong-but doesn't explain why lots were riding heavy steal frames in 1988,89 and 1990...must not have been as obsessed as I thought by bikes at 17. Cafe de Columbia and Kas were on the same frames in 87, 88- from Vitus. Kelly has a TT low prof from 86 that is also black main tubes which would date carbon to 86......this was the colour not the fabric??

Claimed to be Herrera's 84 TDF frame...of what material was this frame? Vitus 979? http://www.rebolledocycles.com/blog/wp- ... -front.jpg


The upper photo link is of a carbon-tubed frame, the lower is aluminium.

The alloy Vitus frames had the rear brake cable routed inside the top tube. The carbon frames used guides bonded to the upper surface of the top tube. I think the photo of Herrera shows a top-routed cable.
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Postby Anna Robic » Sun Nov 09, 2008 21:35 pm

Dave_1 wrote:
Stukie wrote:Robert Millar and the Peugeot team were riding carbon fibre bikes with alu lugs in the 1984 Tour. You can see the carbon bikes with Jubillee clipped water bottles on the frontpage here. http://www.robertmillar.net/


IMO Millar was on alloy tubing, not Carbon in 84-86 at Peugeot...but if not, then why was everyone else 3 year later in getting onto carbon given the weight saving? I very much doubt carbob frames were at the 84 TDF...but prove me wrong


Millar and Peugeot were riding frames with carbon main tubes in 1983 in fact. IIRC La Redoute-Motebecane were also riding carbon frames in 83.
Pic of Millar in 83 Tour: http://cyclingart.blogspot.com/2008/06/ ... tants.html
There was an article about Millar in the 83 Tour where he was seen to be 'violently angry, cursing his mechanic' because he hadn't prepared his carbon bike for the Alpe d'Huez stage. I can't find it online though. These early carbon frames were a little fragile, I remember reading about one frame snapping in the 83 Tour and a mechanic ripping the stickers off the frame as the photograhers gathered around to get pics. That is the only reason I could suggest for the 3 year gap until other carbon frames appeared.

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disquieting_museeuws
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Postby disquieting_museeuws » Sun Nov 09, 2008 22:44 pm

Photos from the 1987 Tour show Herrera & Parra riding Vitus 'Carbone 9' frames (with the top-routed cable). I've always assumed these to be re-badged Alan Carbonio frames (or something darn similar). I have it in the back of my mind that another team was also using an Alan-type frame around this time??

I had the Alan Carbonio in 1986-7, btw - very nice light & strong bike IME.

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disquieting_museeuws
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Postby disquieting_museeuws » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:38 am

To answer my own question, Teka definitely used the Alan Carbonios in 1986 & 87 TDF (although they also used the aluminium frames as well). Cafe de Columbia likewise used the Alan carbon frames at times in the 1985 Tour:

http://www.mountainbike.cz/pic/tdf/hist ... errera.jpg

Thanks for the thread!

Modis
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Re: Carbon fibre who was the first....

Postby Modis » Wed Apr 08, 2009 22:51 pm

DavMartinR wrote:
Should the UCI lower the weight of the bikes from 6.8Kg? I mean all manufacturers build lighter bikes than 6.8Kg these days.

Was it Cannondale that kitting out one of the teams in prison inmate kit to try and get the UCI to lower the weight of the bikes?



Only if the bikes are safe,

I have seen at least six forks snap at the steerer tube during a crash leaving the rider flying face first across the track with a set of bars in his hands.

Thats not safe and regardless of what the weight is the bikes should be structurally sound as a first priority.

I don't believe the manufacturers will self impose this safety standard I think that will be left to the litigators to change eventually.

Bike Bloke
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Postby Bike Bloke » Fri Jun 12, 2009 16:25 pm

I've got an Alan Record Carbonio - from 1986?, still in brilliant condition, for sale if anyone's interested?

Image

DavidBelcher
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Postby DavidBelcher » Fri Jun 12, 2009 16:34 pm

Hmm - head tube with separate top & bottom lugs and a length of carbon tube on that Alan is interesting; early Looks (as used by Hinault/Lemond in the '86 TdF) were similar, but this arrangement must have been troublesome, as my Look KG241 (circa 1998??) has a one-piece alloy head tube with lugs incorporated instead, as has the KG231 predecessor owned by my Dad.

David
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