Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful?

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No tA Doctor
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Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful?

Postby No tA Doctor » Thu Feb 07, 2013 17:44 pm

Just thought I'd throw this out there...

There's lots of comment about whether truth and reconciliation could work, why it won't work and some of the problems in arranging it, but is it actually a bad thing?

Given that we have ongoing investigations in the US, Holland, Italy, Denmark and Belgium, plus the Fuentes trial and the Aussie cross sport doping report, is the time for T&R past already? Most of these investigations will, like USADA, offer a combination of both stick and carrot to get those involved to open up. But if we're promised a fresh start with T&R then then both the carrot and the stick are removed. Tell all now and cop a reduced sanction, or tell all later and get off scot free. Any rider looking at the possibility of a lengthy ban unless he fesses up knows he only needs to drag the process out until his get out of jail free card is printed...
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dish_dash
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby dish_dash » Thu Feb 07, 2013 18:01 pm

It'll only work if you have a big stick to beat people with if they don't testify (and testify truthfully). You'd need an investigations team with global jurisdication to both check the evidence as well as convict anyone who didn't testify.

There is a real risk that it just ends up like the McCarthy hearings...

Also, T&R sorts the past but doesn't address future issues at all. So it may have helped ease some of the immediate post-aparteid tensions in South Africa, but the country still has a heck of a lot of race related problem (e.g. education, labour, economic ownership etc) that it didn't address. So you need a plan for the future through investing in doping controls etc.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby ddraver » Thu Feb 07, 2013 19:14 pm

Agree, just plain T&R might weed out a few guilt ridden domestiques from 20/30years ago that none of us can remember but no one with anything to lose is going to just turn up and admit they re entire career is a fraud...The only way these things will work is if people get put in a position where continuing the lie is going to result in serious money loss or jail time!

These big scale ADA investigations are the only way the truth (at least some useful truth) is going to come anytime soon...
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby esafosfina1 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 19:31 pm

In two minds about this... I can fully comprehend that damage may be done to ongoing 'investigations' but I'd love to know (if guilty parties do disclose...) who cheated, when, how, where and why. Statutes of limitations apply to the time frame I raced in, but it would lay to rest many doubts I've harboured over the years. I'm still to be swayed either way...

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby ddraver » Thu Feb 07, 2013 19:48 pm

The major benefit of a single T&R would be it would ''rip the plaster/band aid off'' in one moment and we could get it over and done with!
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby mididoctors » Thu Feb 07, 2013 20:39 pm

you do both

in time T &R will gain popular backing if they keep the pressure on
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby mididoctors » Thu Feb 07, 2013 20:41 pm

the harm is always a potential due to the timing issue the OP alludes too but note doing nothing new reinforces the current dogma

ie omlette eggs
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby No tA Doctor » Thu Feb 07, 2013 21:25 pm

mididoctors wrote:the harm is always a potential due to the timing issue the OP alludes too but note doing nothing new reinforces the current dogma

ie omlette eggs


Isn't there a pretty sizeable omelette being cooked up already though?
“Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

@DrHeadgear

Steve Abraham's attempt at the year record

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 21:38 pm

No tA Doctor wrote:
mididoctors wrote:the harm is always a potential due to the timing issue the OP alludes too but note doing nothing new reinforces the current dogma

ie omlette eggs


Isn't there a pretty sizeable omelette being cooked up already though?



There's a big tortilla on the go in Madrid, if that's what you're thinking

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 21:42 pm

ddraver wrote:The major benefit of a single T&R would be it would ''rip the plaster/band aid off'' in one moment and we could get it over and done with!



But it wouldnt be one moment. It would drag on for years. You're talking multiple jurisdictions. You're also looking at people saying other people did x & y, and then those people have to be given the chance - and with legal representation - to defend themselves (or otherwise). Its years - not a moment in time and then its all done and dusted and tickety-boo.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 21:43 pm

esafosfina1 wrote:In two minds about this... I can fully comprehend that damage may be done to ongoing 'investigations' but I'd love to know (if guilty parties do disclose...) who cheated, when, how, where and why. Statutes of limitations apply to the time frame I raced in, but it would lay to rest many doubts I've harboured over the years. I'm still to be swayed either way...



How would you feel if all the confessions were done in private? No public hearings. All private - or as has been mooted, everyone fill out a form on which they details what they're experiences were.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby ddraver » Thu Feb 07, 2013 21:45 pm

Richmond Racer wrote:
ddraver wrote:The major benefit of a single T&R would be it would ''rip the plaster/band aid off'' in one moment and we could get it over and done with!



But it wouldnt be one moment. It would drag on for years. You're talking multiple jurisdictions. You're also looking at people saying other people did x & y, and then those people have to be given the chance - and with legal representation - to defend themselves (or otherwise). Its years - not a moment in time and then its all done and dusted and tickety-boo.


Well true, but all part on one process at least...It would also provide somewhere that the sport could draw a line under.
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Macaloon » Fri Feb 08, 2013 09:54 am

"...waiting to hear what Johan Bruyneel and his fellow management conspirators have to say about all of this because there are a few aspects of health and safety I'd like them to explain."

Robert Millar on TRC & Armstrong. Some cracking quotes, but an ambiguous endorsement for the process, at best.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby mr_poll » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:25 am

Depends what its terms of reference are. At present the clamour for a T&R seems to be finally getting the bad guys but not much else - the drawback is that the ongoing saga provides death by a thousand cuts and the sport will feel cleansed but will be left as a shell of itself due to its lack of sponsors etc.

If it is felt that we have learnt what we need to stop this happening again then I would rather time and effort is put in place to draw a massive line in the sand with swift justice (these 12 month cases are a joke) & big punishments for anyone stepping over that (I see WADA are recommending 4 yr bans for first offences).

There are however questions to be answered around governance and possible corruption at the top - T and R has the capability to expose that, if it existed. As harmful a process as that might be it maybe necessary to ensure the right people draw the line in the sand.

IMO - T and R is harmful, especially if its a witch hunt of riders - if its around the governance/culture then it could be the sharp shock the sport needs and unlikely to be sanctioned in all honesty as turkeys dont vote for Christmas.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby micron » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:31 am

There's a good piece on ths by Robert Millar in today's cyclingnews - worth a read

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Above The Cows » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:47 am

Truth and Reconciliation in the context of the politics of a state is one thing, in a commercial sport another thing entirely.

In the context of South Africa it was a way for the country to address some but no means all of the injustice of the past, the socioeconomic injustice was conveniently not addressed by T&R and structural inequalities continue to cause misery to many. But T&R worked in SA because SA as a sovereign state wasn't going anywhere. It would continue (however violently or not) whether they had T&R or they didn't - everyone respected SA's sovereignty and it would have carried on existing.

Procycling is not a sovereign state, capable of extracting wealth from its citizens and trading its natural resources. It is a commercial operation reliant on the money of sponsors and race organisers. Without their patronage there is no procycling. T&R - unless held in private which is sort of not the point of T&R which is about public justice and processes of constructing/altering collective memory - has the capacity to just destroy the idea of procycling to the point where patronage disappears.

Or the people you want to testify just ignore it completely because there is no coercive/judicial capacity to it at all.
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby mididoctors » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:45 am

No tA Doctor wrote:
mididoctors wrote:the harm is always a potential due to the timing issue the OP alludes too but note doing nothing new reinforces the current dogma

ie omlette eggs


Isn't there a pretty sizeable omelette being cooked up already though?


but the point that dopers will defer to the future still stands either way... ie its a false dilemma

if you don't T&R people are going to hold out till they are caught just as if you did

a distortion will always form at the inception of reform because of where actors are relative to any breaking wave so to speak... so you might as well go for the biggest wave you can
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby micron » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:16 pm

I agree about the 'biggest wave' - what was it Armstrong used to say 'extraordinary accusations demand extraordianry proof'? Now perhaps we need to substitute 'extraordinary solutions'.

I'm interested that the UCI dissolved their own independent commission - presumably for being a little too independent? But who will independently observe and verify TRC? Who will stop reconciliation becoming retribution? UCI IC could have played an important part in that - Dame Tanni Grey Thompson is a woman of enormous integrity.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby iainf72 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 13:50 pm

micron wrote:I'm interested that the UCI dissolved their own independent commission - presumably for being a little too independent? But who will independently observe and verify TRC? Who will stop reconciliation becoming retribution? UCI IC could have played an important part in that - Dame Tanni Grey Thompson is a woman of enormous integrity.


There can be no reconciliation without justice.

It's something that will solve nothing at all. Why will talking about the recent past influence the future? Ultimately no one knows what to do, so they're just clutching at anything to be seen to do something. To a point above, if you look at TRC in SA and what society is like now, it really didn't help longer term.
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby micron » Fri Feb 08, 2013 13:54 pm

So what would you do? There's a lot of opposition to TRC but precious few alternatives being offered. Imagine you're the new broom, how do you sweep clean?


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