New wheels. Bloody confused

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boogi11
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New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby boogi11 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 20:17 pm

Hi all. I am really struggling to understand the concept of new wheels. I have people in shops and on forums and In clubs , as well as magazines telling me one of the biggest upgrades on a bike you can make is the wheels, yet I get just as many comments from people on the forum telling me not to upgrade wheels( no disrespect to any body that has kindly offered advice) as I won't notice the difference, now to put this in to context ,I have this bike with these wheels.

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/bia ... 7#features

I have been cycling for one year, and in jan/feb 2014 this will become my winter bike and I will invest about 2500 in a new summer bike. That said I expect to do 4 or 5 big sportives this year, and bike about 150 each week, mainly flat, but one sportive will be very hilly. I'm down a stone to 14.5lb,(target is 13.5) no racing for me. Just for fun

So what do http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/WPP ... _wheel-set offer me that my current wheels don't. I understand that if I spend a grand on wheels I'm going to get aero carbon wheels, but do thePlanet X wheels offer anything to me, and if not what is the break point, I'm reluctant to spend more than 220 on new wheels. I'm running campag by the way.

While I appreciate more money buys better bearings, better spokes and better rims, I can't seem to find any context as to what I have on my bike and what I should be looking for in new wheels

Here are two more i can afford

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=88905
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=88634

And these I really like

http://www.swissside.com/shop/heidi-wheelset

Just looking for some pointers and a bit of a debate so I can draw some conclusions from it.

Thanks in advance

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Rolf F
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby Rolf F » Wed Feb 27, 2013 20:39 pm

.....seemingly said nothing of use! :lol:
Last edited by Rolf F on Wed Feb 27, 2013 21:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Faster than a tent.......

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smidsy
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby smidsy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 20:52 pm

Essentially the reason everyone rattles on about wheel upgrades is because they are one componenet that has a large effect on how the bike feels/moves along (not surprisingly I suppose).

It has a lot to do with weight, but not just lightness, it is also important that it is light where it needs to be but still offers the required durability (so super light is not always best). The rotational mass is the key thing. It is this that provides the most benefit. So you need the things at the far end of the spokes to be light (rims) and the bit in the centre (hubs) can afford to be heavier.

Added to weight there is also stiffness. This is important to help reduce flex when putting power down (e.g climbing). This is where it all gets a bit beyond me (but essentially by a combination of spoke tension and rim you need to get the balance).

Then you need to add in useage, weight of rider, power of rider etc. etc. to get to a wheel that is 'best fit' for your needs.

There is no single correct answer (other than to say speak to a decent wheel builder about what you need) as peoples circumstances will be different.

Ugo.Santalucia had a blog that may help you to further understand. (it may also correct some of my rambling above)

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/
Yellow is the new Black.

boogi11
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby boogi11 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 20:56 pm

Smidsy cheers for the reply ,very Informative. Still not sure what my next move should be. ....this needs On my way! Investigation. I'll keep pondering....or just listen to my lbs and by some of him

boogi11
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby boogi11 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 21:00 pm

smidsy wrote:Essentially the reason everyone rattles on about wheel upgrades is because they are one componenet that has a large effect on how the bike feels/moves along (not surprisingly I suppose).

It has a lot to do with weight, but not just lightness, it is also important that it is light where it needs to be but still offers the required durability (so super light is not always best). The rotational mass is the key thing. It is this that provides the most benefit. So you need the things at the far end of the spokes to be light (rims) and the bit in the centre (hubs) can afford to be heavier.

Added to weight there is also stiffness. This is important to help reduce flex when putting power down (e.g climbing). This is where it all gets a bit beyond me (but essentially by a combination of spoke tension and rim you need to get the balance).

Then you need to add in useage, weight of rider, power of rider etc. etc. to get to a wheel that is 'best fit' for your needs.

There is no single correct answer (other than to say speak to a decent wheel builder about what you need) as peoples circumstances will be different.

Ugo.Santalucia had a blog that may help you to further understand. (it may also correct some of my rambling above)

http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/


Actually, thanks again, that was a lot of typing, people like you who make the effort keep forums like this alive. Cheers

thecycleclinic
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby thecycleclinic » Wed Feb 27, 2013 22:54 pm

Speak to a wheel builder if you are unsure. Oh you are right now so here goes. I hope this helps.

Your current wheels are about 2 -2.1kg. The rims will be around 550g each and the 500g total maybe a bit more. Leaving ~460g for spokes and nipples. This sounds reaosnable. The wheels you have will be accepably stiff and have decent durability. Good cheap winter training wheels.

The campag wheels you identified are lighter and you will notice a difference but you have the issue of maintance. The bearings in campag wheels are easy to replace but free hub bodies when the bearings die are £60 a go. The outer bearing in the freehb is easily replaced but many shops won't do this. The inner bearing is very difficult to do, as the circlip holding the bearing in place is not easily removed then you have the issue of drifting the bearing out.
If a spoke goes these are expensive too. If you crash and damage the rim the cost of replacing the rim plus any damaged spokes means you will be buying new wheels.

Those planet X wheels do not have enough spokes for weight to be every day wheels. The rim could be a Kinlin XR-300 and it is a decent rim. If I was building with XR-300 for general riding/club runs and sportives I would suggest a 24/28 spoke count. However decent the rim the wheelset will be only as good as the people who built it. I am not sure about the quality of planet-X cheaper wheels (evenness of spoke tension, how stress releived they are).

However for the use you are intended and you current weight (wheels have to be built to meet your current requirements as well as possible future ones) and wheelset using Velocity A23 rim and Miche hubs would be a good idea. They could be built with a 28 spoke count front and 32 rear. The A23 off centre rim cold be used on the rear wheel for better tension balance (this can help improve spoke life). Spokes wold be Sapim Race too keep cost down. Expect a wheel set like that to cost £250.
Rim weight for the Velocity A23 is 450g. Hubs = 435g and spokes+ nipples = 435g
Total wheel weight is 1770g which is about the weight of the campag wheels you have idendified but will have a lower moment of interia (commaonly refered to as rotational mass) and they will be more durable than the Planet X budget wheels you have found. Also the bearings in Miche hubs are very durable even in wet winter weather and the free hb bodies are half the price of the campag ones. There is even an shimano 11 speed Miche freehub body coming out very soon so if you want to change to Shimano 11 speed drivetrain you can with a change of freehub body only.

This is one example of a wheelset that wold meet all of your requirements and keeping close to your budget.

Also light wheels can be very durable if the components picked allow the wheel to meet the riders requirements - thats the trick. I ride relaible sub 1400g wheels but I would not recomend them to a 14.5st rider. Those online line sites will sell yo a wheelset but it is up to you to figure out if it meets your needs.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

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PeteMadoc
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby PeteMadoc » Wed Feb 27, 2013 23:13 pm

I think the main point to be made is that £200 won't make much difference over your current wheels.

Camcycle1974
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby Camcycle1974 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 23:27 pm

Instead of the Carbon rims why not look at the Shimano Ultegra wheels on sale at PX for just over £200? Much more durable, a significant weight saving over what you already have and a tried and trusted wheelset for £100 or so less than what they usually sell for. Probably grey import so not guaranteed by Shimano but not a wheel that suffers reliability problems.

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markos1963
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby markos1963 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:05 am

For the OP what people are trying to tell you(I think) about not noticing wheel upgrades is when you are on a budget. A £200 set of wheels won't feel significantly better than what you currently have. Move your budget up to £500 and you will definitely get a performance gain from your wheels. As others have said talk to a wheel builder about your requirements, it does sound daunting but just tell them what you do riding wise, your weight and your budget. They will make some suggestions as to what you should have and then take it from there. I was really pleased that I waited and saved my money for a while longer and went down the custom route for my wheels. Don't forget to budget for decent tyres and a cassette as well.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby ugo.santalucia » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:22 am

Camcycle1974 wrote:Instead of the Carbon rims why not look at the Shimano Ultegra wheels on sale at PX for just over £200? Much more durable, a significant weight saving over what you already have and a tried and trusted wheelset for £100 or so less than what they usually sell for. Probably grey import so not guaranteed by Shimano but not a wheel that suffers reliability problems.


At which point the OP mentioned carbon rims?

keef66
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby keef66 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:47 am

I'm confused too. You say you're going to relegate the (only 1 year old) Bianchi to winter bike duties and spend two and a half grand on a new bike. Where do the new wheels come in??

Anything wrong with the ones on the Bianchi? Is your new bike to be supplied without wheels??

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apreading
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby apreading » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:59 am

keef66 wrote:I'm confused too. You say you're going to relegate the (only 1 year old) Bianchi to winter bike duties and spend two and a half grand on a new bike. Where do the new wheels come in??

Anything wrong with the ones on the Bianchi? Is your new bike to be supplied without wheels??


He has had the Bianchi a year already and will be getting a better bike "in jan/feb 2014" - so still riding the Bianchi for another year. He wants to look at cheaper improvements he can make to the Bianchi now, so that he can enjoy them for 2013. Simple really...

keef66
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby keef66 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:43 pm

Ah, it was the 2014 bit that escaped me. Thought he was on the verge of buying the new bike now.

Still, replacing functioning wheels after just a year still seems a bit excessive to me. That's why I asked if there was anything wrong with them.

I suspect the OP has more disposable income than me...

boogi11
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby boogi11 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 15:30 pm

keef66 wrote:Ah, it was the 2014 bit that escaped me. Thought he was on the verge of buying the new bike now.

Still, replacing functioning wheels after just a year still seems a bit excessive to me. That's why I asked if there was anything wrong with them.

I suspect the OP has more disposable income than me...



far from it.... if , someone had said the wheels on my bianchi horrendous and shouldbe disposed off, and that a £200 set of wheels, would be a massive imporvement that i would notice for the next year, then i would have justified, but as the general feeling is that is will make no difference, then i will wait till next yearand put the money to building my custom bike as opposed to an off the shelf bike

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby ugo.santalucia » Thu Feb 28, 2013 15:46 pm

boogi11 wrote:
keef66 wrote:Ah, it was the 2014 bit that escaped me. Thought he was on the verge of buying the new bike now.

Still, replacing functioning wheels after just a year still seems a bit excessive to me. That's why I asked if there was anything wrong with them.

I suspect the OP has more disposable income than me...



far from it.... if , someone had said the wheels on my bianchi horrendous and shouldbe disposed off, and that a £200 set of wheels, would be a massive imporvement that i would notice for the next year, then i would have justified, but as the general feeling is that is will make no difference, then i will wait till next yearand put the money to building my custom bike as opposed to an off the shelf bike


Your wheels can be serviced and fixed... that's gold these days... :wink:

Danlikesbikes
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Re: New wheels. Bloody confused

Postby Danlikesbikes » Thu Feb 28, 2013 15:59 pm

boogi11 wrote:
While I appreciate more money buys better bearings, better spokes and better rims, I can't seem to find any context as to what I have on my bike and what I should be looking for in new wheels



Take what people say with a pinch of salt re upgrading the wheels, if we all had an unlimited bank fund we would all be on following the maxim of the ideal number of bikes you own is N+1 where N equals the current number you have.

As smidsy states they do make a difference as they are the only contact point with the ground and reducing weight, better bearing as all good things.

However I bought my first proper road bike in 2009 (still have it) and raced in 2010 in road racing, TT's Triathlons and duathlons on a set of £200 wheels that came with the bike. Still have the wheels today and they work perfectly well and are currently on the winter bike and as ugo.santalucia says they are easy enough to get repaired so should last a long time as long as you look after them.

If your on a budget then save your money for a new bike & possibly look to upgrade the tyres first.
Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.


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