Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

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cmhill79
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Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 08:01 am

I've just purchased a new bike and are running an Ultegra 11-28 cassette with a Dura Ace derailleur. I've looked at quite a few forums with the view to changing to a 12-30 cassette. Apparently Shimano don't recommend this but a lot of riders are saying they do it without any problems it's just apparently pushing the derailleur to its limit. What exactly does this mean? Any thoughts/ advice?
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diy
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby diy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 08:08 am

The derailleur has a specific capacity which determines the amount of slack it can take up. This is the difference between the chain on the smallest / smallest vs the biggest /biggest. If the required capacity is greater than the mech can handle then it will probably cause problems shifting or you have to live with not using the biggest ring in the biggest cog and the smallest ring in the smallest cog.

see http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ca-g.html#capacity and
http://home.earthlink.net/~mike.sherman/shift.html

cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 09:22 am

Thanks that's fantastic!! If its just a matter of only using the 30 tooth cog in the smallest ring then I can live with that' as its only on steep hills I'd use the biggest cog.

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dsoutar
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby dsoutar » Sun Sep 01, 2013 21:01 pm

As far as I know if you use a long cage derailleur that would alleviate this restriction (someone will correct me if I am wrong, I'm sure)

cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 05:04 am

If the above scenario is considered to be pushing the limits would I be better off to change the chain rings to a compact? Does this require changing the whole crankset or will the new chain rings just bolt on?

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diy
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby diy » Mon Sep 02, 2013 06:36 am

No the issue in the case of the ultegra mech (6700) appears to be one of both cassette height and capacity. From a capacity point of view you are 2 over the limit on a 11-28. Its max rating is 27T on the rear and a total capacity of 37t.

You'll need a longer mech for a bigger cassette.

Is their a cheaper option of improving fitness/technique etc.?

To get the required range it may be worth looking at a 10 speed XT mech in a long cage which would allow you to go up to 11-36T

Personally I'd live with what you have and try to work on adjustments to the fit and technique for a few months. When I first switched from MTB to road (11-25 rear on a compact) I found it hard, now I don't use the bottom 2 or 3 unless I'm out with some seriously fit riders.

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hatch87
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby hatch87 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 07:38 am

You'll be surprised how much difference that compact makes though. A standard crackset small cog isn't much smaller than the big on a compact.

My friend done a similar thing and put a 30 on, although I think he was on a 25 at the time, it helped but not enough. Although expensive, a compact might be a better option depending on how much you are struggling. All you are loosing is top speed, and I spin out at 45mph with my compact which is a very rare occurrence so really, I'm not loosing anything
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Rolf F
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby Rolf F » Mon Sep 02, 2013 07:53 am

hatch87 wrote:You'll be surprised how much difference that compact makes though. A standard crackset small cog isn't much smaller than the big on a compact.


I've not heard 39 states as being not much smaller than 50 before! I think that does count as a lot!

IMO it depends on what the final result is likely to be. There are several options as described

1) Get the biggest cassette the rear mech can handle. That might be enough. If it isn't, then you may have wasted money on a cassette that you won't use in the final solution.
2) Buy a medium cage rear mech and a bigger cassette than the one above. Not much hassle and maybe not so expensive - the rear mech doesn't need to cost much (get a 105 one or lower and just tell everybody it is a temporary fix!) and it is easy to fit.
3) Buy a compact crankset. This is probably a good solution but not cheap and you may need to pay the LBS to fit it. This leads to further options
a) retain existing cassette. Probably gives you similar gears to option 1 above.
b) bigger cassette - maybe the one you bought in option 1 - option 1 having not solved the problem
c) medium cage rear mech and bigger cassette. You can now ride up cliffs.

The gamble is on the cassette in option 1. Option 2 is probably the safe one but a lot of cyclists won't like it as they don't like longer cage mechs because they don't look so cool! A side effect is that it does also mean you have a spare rear mech for emergencies which is never a bad thing to have.

It also depends where you are in the country. Where I am, W Yorks, really a compact is the default choice so I'd probably just get a compact and have done with. In flatter areas, this isn't the case.
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cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:23 am

Thanks everyone for info. The bike shop tell me that the 30t will work but I need another chain with an extra link. Shimano don't sell separate links for Dura Ace so I need another chain which is about $80. Fortunately as the bike is very new they are just swapping the cassettes over. So hopefully problem solved for < $100

markhewitt1978
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby markhewitt1978 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:26 am

I bought a Dura Ace chain for £40. No idea how close to $80 that is, as I don't know how much stuff costs in Australia.

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Grill
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby Grill » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:27 am

hatch87 wrote:You'll be surprised how much difference that compact makes though. A standard crackset small cog isn't much smaller than the big on a compact.

My friend done a similar thing and put a 30 on, although I think he was on a 25 at the time, it helped but not enough. Although expensive, a compact might be a better option depending on how much you are struggling. All you are loosing is top speed, and I spin out at 45mph with my compact which is a very rare occurrence so really, I'm not loosing anything


Your first statement is ridiculous and just plain wrong, but what makes me laugh is saying that you spin out a compact at 45mph... I highly doubt you're maintaining composure downhill at 125rpm. I spin out a standard long before that.
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cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:29 am

Also, if I can indulge myself once more, every forum I read about comparing 105 to Ultegra or Ultegra to Dura Ace etc says there is virtually no difference. If this is the case why do people run on the higher specs? My main reason for a bike upgrade was to go from an alloy frame to a carbon frame which I am pleased to advise makes a MASSIVE difference in handling and control, not to mention speed particularly on the flat.

cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:30 am

markhewitt1978 wrote:I bought a Dura Ace chain for £40. No idea how close to $80 that is, as I don't know how much stuff costs in Australia.


£40 is not far off AUD80. Everything seems to cost more in Australia though...

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Grill
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby Grill » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:36 am

cmhill79 wrote:Also, if I can indulge myself once more, every forum I read about comparing 105 to Ultegra or Ultegra to Dura Ace etc says there is virtually no difference. If this is the case why do people run on the higher specs? My main reason for a bike upgrade was to go from an alloy frame to a carbon frame which I am pleased to advise makes a MASSIVE difference in handling and control, not to mention speed particularly on the flat.


This is not the case and is usually the position taken by those who do not have the higher gruppos.
105 is fine and will do everything you ask of it. It's probably all anyone really needs.
Ultegra is lighter and smoother. If you ride loads you'll appreciate it.
Dura Ace is lighter and smoother still. Once you've ridden it it's very easy to tell the difference between gruppos.
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby markhewitt1978 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:37 am

cmhill79 wrote:Also, if I can indulge myself once more, every forum I read about comparing 105 to Ultegra or Ultegra to Dura Ace etc says there is virtually no difference. If this is the case why do people run on the higher specs? My main reason for a bike upgrade was to go from an alloy frame to a carbon frame which I am pleased to advise makes a MASSIVE difference in handling and control, not to mention speed particularly on the flat.


Of course it does, I've done the same and it does make a big difference. Both in the enjoyment of the bike and the speed and everything else. But there are a lot who for some reason want to push the view that none of it matters - I concede it doesn't matter that much but it does matter ;)

cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:38 am

Grill wrote:
cmhill79 wrote:Also, if I can indulge myself once more, every forum I read about comparing 105 to Ultegra or Ultegra to Dura Ace etc says there is virtually no difference. If this is the case why do people run on the higher specs? My main reason for a bike upgrade was to go from an alloy frame to a carbon frame which I am pleased to advise makes a MASSIVE difference in handling and control, not to mention speed particularly on the flat.


This is not the case and is usually the position taken by those who do not have the higher gruppos.
105 is fine and will do everything you ask of it. It's probably all anyone really needs.
Ultegra is lighter and smoother. If you ride loads you'll appreciate it.
Dura Ace is lighter and smoother still. Once you've ridden it it's very easy to tell the difference between gruppos.


Yeah well I went from Tiagra to Dura Ace and that is a massive leap. I can't comment about 105 and Ultegra though as never ridden on them. Biggest difference I noticed though was between an alloy frame with carbon forks and a full carbon frame. Only 2-3 kilo difference but has easily increased performance by 10% +

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hatch87
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby hatch87 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:46 am

Grill wrote:Your first statement is ridiculous and just plain wrong, but what makes me laugh is saying that you spin out a compact at 45mph... I highly doubt you're maintaining composure downhill at 125rpm. I spin out a standard long before that.


OK, maybe my teeth count was a bit out, thought the smaller of a standard was in the 40's. :oops:

But as for RPM, I nearly always average around 100rpm which allowing for up hills means my flat rpm is normally around 105-110rpm. An extra 10-15 for a few seconds of down hill isn't really much of an issue

EDIT - Might need to add I have an 11-28 rather than the normal 12-XX which probably helps a tiny bit.
Last edited by hatch87 on Mon Sep 02, 2013 09:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rolf F
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby Rolf F » Mon Sep 02, 2013 08:59 am

cmhill79 wrote:Yeah well I went from Tiagra to Dura Ace and that is a massive leap. I can't comment about 105 and Ultegra though as never ridden on them. Biggest difference I noticed though was between an alloy frame with carbon forks and a full carbon frame. Only 2-3 kilo difference but has easily increased performance by 10% +


10%? That's more than I get between a heavy touring bike with guards, racks etc and a carbon frame bike.

cmhill79 wrote: My main reason for a bike upgrade was to go from an alloy frame to a carbon frame which I am pleased to advise makes a MASSIVE difference in handling and control, not to mention speed particularly on the flat.


On the flat you are generally going at a constant speed so it's hard to see how the change from a heavier to a lighter bike would generate more of a difference on the flat.......

There is a lot of optimism on this thread which is a nice thing!
Faster than a tent.......

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diy
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby diy » Mon Sep 02, 2013 09:07 am

There is a big difference between a 12 and 11 at the other end.

Would be interested to see/read some analysis on the type of hills that are causing the problems, length, grade, cadence technique etc.

cmhill79
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Re: Ultegra 12-30 on Dura Ace derailleur?

Postby cmhill79 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 09:17 am

Rolf F wrote:
cmhill79 wrote:Yeah well I went from Tiagra to Dura Ace and that is a massive leap. I can't comment about 105 and Ultegra though as never ridden on them. Biggest difference I noticed though was between an alloy frame with carbon forks and a full carbon frame. Only 2-3 kilo difference but has easily increased performance by 10% +


10%? That's more than I get between a heavy touring bike with guards, racks etc and a carbon frame bike.

cmhill79 wrote: My main reason for a bike upgrade was to go from an alloy frame to a carbon frame which I am pleased to advise makes a MASSIVE difference in handling and control, not to mention speed particularly on the flat.


On the flat you are generally going at a constant speed so it's hard to see how the change from a heavier to a lighter bike would generate more of a difference on the flat.......



There is a lot of optimism on this thread which is a nice thing!


I agree with what you say however I can attest to a big difference between the alloy from and carbon and I'm noticing most of that difference on the flat and of course off the mark. I have gone from an AUD1,500 bike to a AUD4,000 bike.

I've been into fitness for a long time (running, cycling etc) and I know even 5% is massive but I have noticed close to a 10% improvement over a couple of rides with similar fitness/ weight levels


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