"Nice bike mate! How many gears has it got!!?"

"It's got 20"

"Only 20? That's rubbish mate, my mate dave has got a mountain bike and he's got 27!"

you know what for years I've been riding thinking 'If only I had an extra gears I'm sure I'd be .0001moh average faster'

Ah the good old days....

It's just a gentle progression that we all get more gears. I can't see it making much of a difference though. My hardtail has 8 at the back and my fully 9 - I don't notice the extra gear...

27 gears, of which you use like 10, haha.

Explaining a single speed to a novice elicits some confused looks too. :)

I'd probably be able to spell better as well

Ha Ha...

Explaining singlespeed to anyone except a hippie elicits some confused looks. ; )

(let's not go there)...

I must say that I have a 7 speed rear cassette on my old MTB (Orange Prestige fully rigid) and you sometimes notice it could do with an extra cog in the middle as their is too bigger gap between gears. I cannot say that about my 9 speed rear cassette on the full susser. Also when you come to replace the cassette and chain you will have to buy either a XX or XTR one. Get saving now or stay out of the mud!

Why are Shimano waiting another year to give us ten gears at the back of mtbs when they've had road groupsets with it for years..!? It's not like it's anything groundbreaking and going to require much r&d. Can you not just use a road flat bar shifter and a long rear mech anyway?

You guys joke about the gears thing but lets face it XTR is aimed at racers and is often bought by the public for the "I want" factor.

10 speed is about giving the range you need but with less steps between the gears. A high cadence racer is thinking about gears as a means of trimming speed and maintaining a favoured cadence. Not about whether or not he care merely get up that hill in this gear.

The double up front saves weight and they have no need for a granny.

2x10 makes perfect sense if you understand the application...

zero303 hit the nail on the head, you just need to look at a road bike cassette to see the logic in it.

How have cyclocross riders ever managed?

You could use a flat bar/long cage rear mech which would also be cheaper, but this would look better...or something. Maybe. Still your mates would be jealous at least. Can't put a price on that.

The same logic does not always apply to mountain bikers though.

For example for some terrain it's better to spin on, whereas some terrain, gradients and trail conditions mean bigger gears work better. Sudden changes in gradients also mean quick jumps in gears are needed and the jump between ratios is not even considered - you just need a much lower gear straight away.

I think with mountain biking riders do not spend long enough in one gear to really moan about the 'gear not being quite at the right cadence' like roadies experience. Roadies generally have a cadence they like pedalling at all of the time and will only pedal quicker or slower if they run out of gears (usually uphill or downhill)

Thaey are both types of bike riding but are different sports after all.... and it's fun to take the piss about the number of gears!

Yes, it sure is!

Personally I find having 3 at the front means you can quickly nip through the gears if you go down/flat/up very quickly. Maybe it's different for them racer types though.

But once again, you're assuming XTR is actually designed for most mountain bikers. XC courses are generally easier (there are some bonkers ones too I agree) and the riders a LOT more powerful and often more skilled.

It's only marketed and sold to us to fund the R&D.

I'm not claiming to be a proper racer but I've been on a long draggy climb late into a 24 hr race and been mentally driving myself nuts over the fact that my tired legs can't decide between 28 or 32 when in reality I would like 30.

the concept of using less gears (2x10) seems to be so successful that some pros have begun running 1x9 (geoff kabush, adam craig) or 1x10 (julien absalon) :D

I race regular as clockwork and use XTR never ever felt the need for extra gear weight saving due to twin cog is barely measurable (u can loose this weight & more by easy management of diet), this has more to do with SRAM going 10 and campag 11 speed shimano don't wanna look like they are being left behind. I do believe Steve Worland wrote an article about 10 speed as he converted a bike with similar set as mentioned above and noticed no difference between 9 or his single speed across his averages. Diminishing return, also read the article about XX in single track and see how they desperate to justify it and read between the lines to see they have had issues with it

The annual drip feed of slighlty different groupos is getting harder for the major manufacturors. This could easily have been released last year. It's no great difference but people will buy it anyway.

http://www.madison.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?vertical=Cycling&tier1=Transmission+Components&tier2=Gear+Levers+-+MTB+%26+Flat+Bar&catref=SLR770PA

carbonfiend - I use these and a 10 speed Ultegra cassette and chain on my MTB and really appreciate the close ratios. I doubt whether it makes me ride any faster, but that's not always the point ;-)

its starting to get like the ads for razors mine has ten blades for a closer cut.there was nothing wrong with seven speed.in fact it seemed more reliable stronger and lasted longer.i dont use a big ring i run a 22 and 34 which is adequate for most of my riding.i feel its just a gimmick i really dont believe the benefits are that good that i want to fork out money to upgrade.

Hey Shimano! So What!

Give us a decent low maintenance hub gear setup for an MTB with, lets say, 14 gears or so that could be used with a holzfeller style crank or a carbon belt drive.

I dont want to be faffing around with my rear mech cos its got too much crud in it. I might even not clean it every time I use the thing. Think about it.

Crazy crazy crazy..........where will it all end. We'll be changing worn out chains and cassettes every couple of months. Really not bothered what XTR does as I don't use it, but once 10 speed trickles down to XT and SLX, I'll be pissed off . I want some trail toughness and durability on my bike, not marketing hype.

How long before xtr goes spinal tap? (up to 11 for the youngsters)

So now I can fit a wide range mtb cassette on the road bike for the fred!

I think it makes sense for racing and in a way Shimano would have been forced to develop something to respond to Sram's XX. No doubt it'll probably be $50 cheaper than the Sram stuff.

Although 30 gears... I think Shimano are just planning to keep making triples because - well it's clear really. You'd have to be mad to want 30! 'pedal pedal, shift, pedal, shift, pedal pedal, shift, pedal pedal, shift, brake, pedal, shift, break, shift, pedal' And that's just to get the 100m from your car to the trail head.

Hmm ... But will the 10sp XTR cassette fit in place of an Ultegra one? Thus giving me drastically lower gearing for winching myself up the side of mountains! :-)

Why? Does anyone use all the gears they've already got? Half of mine (all XTR) are dark with clag, the other half are essentially clean - barely used.

Give me reliable, slick changes every time and find a way to automatically adjust for stretched cables - then I'd be in heaven.

What a silly idea - clearly one from the marketing folks rather than a customer request! No doubt will get 10/10 from some of the mtb magazines. However, in the real world:

Does the cassette offer a bigger range than the current 11-32/34? No.

Do MTBers pedal for hours at a time and therefore need ratios in steps of 1 to maintain cadence? No.

Does the narrower gap between the chain plates and cassette sprockets bung up with mud quicker? Yes, dreadfully so, just like the move to 9spd.

Will it wear out quicker? Yes.

Bikeradar and affiliates - please ensure every bike fitted this gets 0/10 - make a point and do something useful for once.

I personally think it's a good idea, I like the fact that SRAM have gone down the route of wider ratio cassettes, it allows you to stay in a certain chainring for longer. My Full suspension bike pedals really well in the middle ring but digs the back wheel in a little too much in the granny.

A great example of this was a few weeks ago doing the Gap route in the Brecon Beacons. It was the first time I'd ridden it and my friend suggested I drop into the granny and spin up the climb gently to save my legs for later, but I actually found that the back wheel absorbed the bumps better in the middle ring, maintaining my momentum and tiring my legs less, even though I was in a bigger gear and going at a faster pace. Had the slope been a little steeper, I'd have had to drop down to the granny and fight against the undulating terrain more, with the new SRAM cassette, that wouldn't have been a problem. I hope Shimano follow SRAM's lead and make an 11-36 or wider.

Complaining about clagging up with mud and increased wear is such a British thing to hear on a forum (I'm British too). Firstly, Shimano are Japanese and are appealing mostly to the US and Europe, who have better weather and are bigger markets, secondly, this is racer's kit, it's expensive to buy and it's expensive to maintain, do you think Jenson Button is concerned that his tyres only last half a race? Of course not, he wants the highest possible performance, as would Absalon or any other world cup racer. If you're daft enough (or rich enough) to buy XTR for trail riding then you have to expect to shell out more to keep your bike running. I like the idea of hub gears and belt drives but this has 2 major problems for me.

1) It's extra rotating weight

2) It's extra unsprung weight

3) The pivot on a full suspension frame would have to be concentric with the bottom bracket or you'd have to run a tensioner, negating the benefit of not having derailleurs

4) In my experience, the hub gears I have ridden have been too draggy, which would be a real problem if you're knackered pedalling up the final fireroad of a monster ride, close to getting the bonk.

5) So far, the gear range is too close and the jumps between gears are too big

I think the big S should be ploughing money into some kind of gearbox based drivetrain for more than just downhill bikes, unlike SRAM and Nicolai. It can't be that hard, just miniiturise a car or motorbike gearbox.

hmm, that's five major problems

i think this whole argument is stupid.

i run an old rear mech cut with the bottom jockey wheel cut off to act as a chain tensioner for my single speed set up. true sometimes its not high enough, and sometimes its too high, but generrally i manage. mountain biking is a sport that shouldnt be as easy as you can make it, its about the adrenaline and excitement. this seems like development for developments sake in all honesty, and i find that stupid. some products are a genuine break through, like truvatives hammerschmidt system, but adding an extra gear when some of us dont need more than 1 is pointless. the only people who should run this setup are pure XC racers, sponsered by shimano so they can afford to change cassette and chain every race. the same argument goes for XTR anyway, how many people are actually that serious about riding that 100g makes it worth the increase in cost over XT?

I like the idea of hub / gearbox gears a lot more than having 2x10 speed on the back and I don't care about the extra weight - I want my bike to be available day in and day out even if the last ride caked it in mud.

Also to Shaggy_Dog saying "The pivot on a full suspension frame would have to be concentric with the bottom bracket or you'd have to run a tensioner, negating the benefit of not having derailleurs"

A tensioner is generally run a lot higher and further in than a derailleur - they are also light (throw a spare in the bag), if they break then you can get home locking out the back suspension and using a chain tool to shorten the chain (usually found on most good bike related multitools), they are aligned with bolts rather than cables that can stretch and last but not least - they are super cheap to replace (say £15 as compared to a £60 SRAM X.9).